HK?

With The Initials "HK" on the stock of this gun, I thought it might be a lead to contact Heckler & Koch to see if this was an early model made by them. Here is my email and their reply:

"To Whom It May Concern,

I'm trying to identify a German Shotgun. It has the initials "HK" on
the butt of the gun. I was wondering if it could be an early model
from Heckler-Koch.

I have posted more photos on this web site: http://
germanshotgun.blogspot.com/

Does this gun look familiar to you? Can you be of assistance or
direct me to someone who might be able to help me. It's been in the
family and I'm looking for a possible value."


Reply from Heckler-Koch:

"Please note that the gun on the picture is not an HK-gun.
We suppose that "HK" on the stock represent initials of a name.
However, not of a brand name but of another name.
Best regards,
HK Jagd- und Sportwaffen GmbH
i. A.
Monika Hils
Sales Export"

More Thoughts From Raimey

"Have a gander at the 1st pic on the 3rd row at Cabela's site which lists a Sauer 20 bore hammergun with typical Sauer marks at: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 . The Sauer trademark from 1882 is the "Caveman", possibly Hercules(but I've been reprimanded for this reference) at say the top of the barrel flats. It could be found on the tubes, the flats or the watertable and on all. I'll email you one if I have a electronic copy. Note that there are some letters in an "oval" on the underside of the right tube. Sometimes the rib hides the marks."

"I don't see anything just yet. The "Crown" over "S" is the German proof mark noting the tube is destined for shot as a load at double the service/standard load in the first proof while the Imperial Eagle/Proof Eagle- Beschussadler neuer art(grazing animal) notes the tube has experienced threefold the normal charge. I don't think the amount was changed in the 1912 rules."

"I now see that the mark overstruck by the 16.2 could be "HS" and for the person responsible for fitting the tubes to the action. I don't see an "oval" around it and it could or could not be the same person as the other "H.S.". A few choices are:

Hermann Schlegelmilch of Suhl
Hermann Schlegelmilch of Zella-Mehlis
H. Schaller of Suhl
Heinrich Scharfenbert of Zella-Mehlis
Hans Schaum of Franken & Lunenschloss(usually "F&L") of Suhl
H. Schilling of Suhl
Hugo Schilling of Suhl
Hugo and Hans Schmeisser of Suhl - probably not
Hermann Schneider, etc.

On a previous post I noted that that there was a Sauer-Schlegelmilch connection, and Schlegelmilch did source components from Sauer as well as others, but I meant to note the Sauer-Ernst Steigleder connection as Steigleder was a firearms merchant and most firearms merchants first were gunsmiths, some being master gunsmiths.

"I failed to mention that "HS" could have been the Hermann in Suhl or Zella St. Blasii.  It also could be some other master gunsmith for the Suhl/Zella St. Blassi/Zella-Mehlis region with the initials HS.  This is where the guessing really begins.  I don't know if Hermann would double stamp the tube if he only did the barrel making and action fitting and I don't think the stamps to be the same for now."
 

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

More Mystery Marks...

Can you tell what they are??

Raimey on Hermann Schlegelmilch

Now there was also a Hermann Schlegelmilch of Suhl who was a gun stocker prior to WWII and might have been the same person or a son or father. The Schlegelmilch folk were very competent weapons makers. Casper was a specialist gun barrel maker while Franz was a barrel blank maker possilby all funded by Ernst Wilhelm Schlegelmilch who possibly purchased components from Sauer or had Sauer to make longarms and roll stamp his name on them. There were a couple more Schlegelmilch folk with Reinhard Schlegelmilch being a stocker. Any relationship between "H.S." and Hermann Schlegelmilch is pure conjecture on my part but we have the initals on the guns and the gunsmith names in the directories. If you handed me the longarm and gave me a very finite amount to time to make the call: with the Krupp steel on the tubes and the "H.S." I would say it was a joint venture of Sauer & Schlegelmilch and a firearms merchant/gunsmith in Bohemia. As a side note, a monogram of "H.S." found on 6.35mm pistols probably stands for Haenel-Schmeisser(Carl Gotlieb Haenel & Hugo Schmeisser). So as several have posted, we may never know the exact maker due to the passage of time and destruction of info. It was a cottage industry with many doing many functions. If we had a list of contractors and subs we might have a start. I don't know that I've seen a no-name Bohemian longarm as most have the name on the rib or somewhere, but yours could well be an example. Is there a Lion on the watertable near the "NP" sub "w"? Nice coordination of info on your blog.

On 10th glance I think I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark under the "2" of the "16.2" under the left tube. Then again I see the Sauer "Caveman" mark in my sleep. Can you tell what the mark is?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hermann Schlegelmilch

"H.S. - possibly Hermann Schlegelmilch of Zella-Mehlis who was a gun barrel drawer. Your longarm experienced preliminary/provisional proof in Germany due to the fact that it appears to be void of the 1st and 2nd marks signifying it experiencing proof in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Proof Conference of 1914 allowed countries to adopt rules to acknowledge each other's proofmarks although some countries like Franceand Italy didn't incorporate the rules into law until the early to mid 1920s. Your double has the rampant Bohemian Lion which is the mark of the 3 proof firing. The "NP" w/ sub. "W" is the mark of semi-smokeless or Nitro.

Maker, no idea just yet. It appears the maker or firearms merchant around Weipert purchased the components in the white from Suhl and/or Zella-Mehlis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey"

Crest Identified!

"The "crest" under NPw actualy seems to be the Czech standing lion mark."
-Jani

"Jani is correct. The rampant Bohemian Lion was the mark of the 3rd proof that replaced the double headed eagle. The Weipert Lion has a 2 on his breast plate while the Prague Lion has a 1. Some sources give that the Lion replaced the 2 head eagle in 1931 but there are sources and examples that point toward a replacement date as early as 1928. On the underside of the left tube is that a "R.S." in an oval? The tubes are more than likely from the Sauer plant and were proofed/proved in Suhl hence the German proofmarks and the action(Model 17 less overhanging scears??) could also have been forged at the Sauer plant. Another name of speculation for source or assembly is Robert Schlegelmilch or H&K Schlegelmilch. Although I have seen a drilling with the name of Schiwy of Berlin which had similar pin/screw configurations and I realize yours is a double. Interesting front pin/screw configuration."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Details Of Crest Marking

A new friend at Shotgunworld.com indicated that the marking below the initials NPw may help indentify, so here are the photos, click each image to enlarge:
"It's Austrian, not German. The proof mark indicates it was proofed by the Weipert proof house between 1891-1931. A closeup of the mark below the NPw proof on the barrels might be helpful. You'll likely never be able to identify the actual maker..."