"Have a gander at the 1st pic on the 3rd row at Cabela's site which lists a Sauer 20 bore hammergun with typical Sauer marks at: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 . The Sauer trademark from 1882 is the "Caveman", possibly Hercules(but I've been reprimanded for this reference) at say the top of the barrel flats. It could be found on the tubes, the flats or the watertable and on all. I'll email you one if I have a electronic copy. Note that there are some letters in an "oval" on the underside of the right tube. Sometimes the rib hides the marks."
"I don't see anything just yet. The "Crown" over "S" is the German proof mark noting the tube is destined for shot as a load at double the service/standard load in the first proof while the Imperial Eagle/Proof Eagle- Beschussadler neuer art(grazing animal) notes the tube has experienced threefold the normal charge. I don't think the amount was changed in the 1912 rules."
"I now see that the mark overstruck by the 16.2 could be "HS" and for the person responsible for fitting the tubes to the action. I don't see an "oval" around it and it could or could not be the same person as the other "H.S.". A few choices are:
Hermann Schlegelmilch of Suhl
Hermann Schlegelmilch of Zella-Mehlis
H. Schaller of Suhl
Heinrich Scharfenbert of Zella-Mehlis
Hans Schaum of Franken & Lunenschloss(usually "F&L") of Suhl
H. Schilling of Suhl
Hugo Schilling of Suhl
Hugo and Hans Schmeisser of Suhl - probably not
Hermann Schneider, etc.
On a previous post I noted that that there was a Sauer-Schlegelmilch connection, and Schlegelmilch did source components from Sauer as well as others, but I meant to note the Sauer-Ernst Steigleder connection as Steigleder was a firearms merchant and most firearms merchants first were gunsmiths, some being master gunsmiths.
"I failed to mention that "HS" could have been the Hermann in Suhl or Zella St. Blasii. It also could be some other master gunsmith for the Suhl/Zella St. Blassi/Zella-Mehlis region with the initials HS. This is where the guessing really begins. I don't know if Hermann would double stamp the tube if he only did the barrel making and action fitting and I don't think the stamps to be the same for now."
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Do You Recognize This Gun?
Do You Recognize This Gun?
I am trying to trace it's origin, make, model and value. It has been in my family for some time now, but I do not know anything about it except that it is of German origin.
If you do, please email me with any information you may have at: filmcity@nycap.rr.com
All photos can be enlarged by clicking them.
Thank you very much! I sure would appreciate any notes, comments or history.
I am trying to trace it's origin, make, model and value. It has been in my family for some time now, but I do not know anything about it except that it is of German origin.
If you do, please email me with any information you may have at: filmcity@nycap.rr.com
All photos can be enlarged by clicking them.
Thank you very much! I sure would appreciate any notes, comments or history.
Comments
I cannot identify it but it is one beautiful piece.
--Stan in SC
---------------------
I don't know much about shotguns but yours, to me, bears a close resemblance to a Merkel 147E which were made in Suhl, Germany.
--Don
---------------------
Your inquiry was forwarded to us, and we looked at your photos.
They show a very typical German boxlock gun with side clips, Greener cross bolt and a doll's head rib extension on an Anson & Deeley type action.
The gun was most likely made in Suhl, the former German gunmaking center.
We can't identify the markings on the underside of the barrels. They might show when the gun was made and possibly who made it.
Sincerely,
Dietrich Apel
German Gun Collectors Association
---------------------
Your best bet is to go over to Germanguns.org or Shotgunworld.com forums and ask them. It's a beaut, but chances are high that unless it's a specific, easily recognized model all anyone will be able to tell you is that it is a German Guild pattern shotgun, hand-built to a standardized format by an unknown gunsmith long ago. For whatever reason, German shotguns and rifles were not maker-marked as often as guns from other countries.
--Vaarok
---------------------
Hi,
Go here. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php These guys are nothing but double guns of all kinds.
Your gun is most likely a Guild piece. It looks kind of like a Suhl region piece. It does look very nice.
--dalee
---------------------
It is box lock which leads to it being very good to decent shotgun. Proofs are not German. They are Austrian. The barrels were made by Krupp, but that is not anything special since Krupp was selling barrels separately to various gun makers through out the world.
--ij70
---------------------
It's Austrian, not German.
The proof mark indicates it was proofed by the Weipert proof house between 1891-1931.
A closeup of the mark below the NPw proof on the barrels might be helpful.
You'll likely never be able to identify the actual maker...
--drsfmd
---------------------
This 16g double with German Krupp barrels was proofed in 1929 in Weipert/Vejprty, Czechoslovakia.
NPw .... Nitro Proof Weipert, Bohemia, Austria-Hungary,1891-1918; Vejprty, Czechoslovakia, 1918-1931 (?)
29....... 1929
These are common Austro-Hungarian markings which were also used post-WWI for a number of years in some of the countries that were constituted in 1918 when Austria-Hungary ceased to exist.
Weipert/Vejprty was an importand gun making center; probably the most well known maker was Gustav Fückert with his patented Kronengewehr (Crown Gun).
--Jani
---------------------
Interesting - I agree with Jani, looks like a gun built in Weipert in 1929 by the NPw and numeric string, and yet the barrels show the German Eagle-crown-over-S 'smoothbore' proof mark along with the Weipert marks without any other German marks visible in the photos.
If the complete gun had been built in Germany there would be more German proofs on both barrels and action. The lack of any German proof on the action makes me think that the gun was built in Czechoslovakia and used a set of tubes out of Germany.
Like so many of these pre-WWII guns, establishing just who made it is unlikely, particularly in this case where any German marks on the barrels are unlikely to relate to the gunmaker and the only marks on the action body are Czech.
It's always a wonder to me that whomever made a fine piece like this wouldn't mark it. Unfortunately common, but still a wonderment.
--Steve Meyer
---------------------
SM, in the day these guns were made, guns were made by the village/town gunmaker, of course. If you had the money and wanted a gun that is where you went. Everyone within his sales area knew him and knew his products. Signing would have been superfluis and ostentatious. I doubt that he ever considered that someday somebody in USA would wonder at his work; quite beyond his imigination. The norms for distribution of goods was vastly different from today. Hard for us to imagine he wouldn't sign his work and equally hard for him to imagine craftsmen of his skill level now vieing for global distribution.
--Rocketman
--Stan in SC
---------------------
I don't know much about shotguns but yours, to me, bears a close resemblance to a Merkel 147E which were made in Suhl, Germany.
--Don
---------------------
Your inquiry was forwarded to us, and we looked at your photos.
They show a very typical German boxlock gun with side clips, Greener cross bolt and a doll's head rib extension on an Anson & Deeley type action.
The gun was most likely made in Suhl, the former German gunmaking center.
We can't identify the markings on the underside of the barrels. They might show when the gun was made and possibly who made it.
Sincerely,
Dietrich Apel
German Gun Collectors Association
---------------------
Your best bet is to go over to Germanguns.org or Shotgunworld.com forums and ask them. It's a beaut, but chances are high that unless it's a specific, easily recognized model all anyone will be able to tell you is that it is a German Guild pattern shotgun, hand-built to a standardized format by an unknown gunsmith long ago. For whatever reason, German shotguns and rifles were not maker-marked as often as guns from other countries.
--Vaarok
---------------------
Hi,
Go here. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php These guys are nothing but double guns of all kinds.
Your gun is most likely a Guild piece. It looks kind of like a Suhl region piece. It does look very nice.
--dalee
---------------------
It is box lock which leads to it being very good to decent shotgun. Proofs are not German. They are Austrian. The barrels were made by Krupp, but that is not anything special since Krupp was selling barrels separately to various gun makers through out the world.
--ij70
---------------------
It's Austrian, not German.
The proof mark indicates it was proofed by the Weipert proof house between 1891-1931.
A closeup of the mark below the NPw proof on the barrels might be helpful.
You'll likely never be able to identify the actual maker...
--drsfmd
---------------------
This 16g double with German Krupp barrels was proofed in 1929 in Weipert/Vejprty, Czechoslovakia.
NPw .... Nitro Proof Weipert, Bohemia, Austria-Hungary,1891-1918; Vejprty, Czechoslovakia, 1918-1931 (?)
29....... 1929
These are common Austro-Hungarian markings which were also used post-WWI for a number of years in some of the countries that were constituted in 1918 when Austria-Hungary ceased to exist.
Weipert/Vejprty was an importand gun making center; probably the most well known maker was Gustav Fückert with his patented Kronengewehr (Crown Gun).
--Jani
---------------------
Interesting - I agree with Jani, looks like a gun built in Weipert in 1929 by the NPw and numeric string, and yet the barrels show the German Eagle-crown-over-S 'smoothbore' proof mark along with the Weipert marks without any other German marks visible in the photos.
If the complete gun had been built in Germany there would be more German proofs on both barrels and action. The lack of any German proof on the action makes me think that the gun was built in Czechoslovakia and used a set of tubes out of Germany.
Like so many of these pre-WWII guns, establishing just who made it is unlikely, particularly in this case where any German marks on the barrels are unlikely to relate to the gunmaker and the only marks on the action body are Czech.
It's always a wonder to me that whomever made a fine piece like this wouldn't mark it. Unfortunately common, but still a wonderment.
--Steve Meyer
---------------------
SM, in the day these guns were made, guns were made by the village/town gunmaker, of course. If you had the money and wanted a gun that is where you went. Everyone within his sales area knew him and knew his products. Signing would have been superfluis and ostentatious. I doubt that he ever considered that someday somebody in USA would wonder at his work; quite beyond his imigination. The norms for distribution of goods was vastly different from today. Hard for us to imagine he wouldn't sign his work and equally hard for him to imagine craftsmen of his skill level now vieing for global distribution.
--Rocketman
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